Co-Founder of KAGED - Kris Gethin

Kris, you've been competing since 1999, I believe, in natural bodybuilding competitions. You started your gym chains; you started Kaged Muscle back in the day. You're a big biohacker and probably the most well-recognized trainer out there. So I'm super excited to have this discussion now. You mentioned you were in Boise a few weeks ago. We had a nice conversation with Ryan Deluca, and the video became quite viral, and it was about the journey with a bodybuilder, and he mentioned that you were the brains behind the first video series.

So, I wanted to ask you some questions about bodybuilding. How did you join bodybuilding? Then speak about Kaged and somewhat about biohacking too. So why don't we start with that? I believe Kaged Muscle at the beginning was a magazine. I read somewhere as well.

Yeah, that's right. So, I published a magazine from 2005 to 2007, I believe. I published that as a hard copy publication.

Awesome. And how did you learn about bodybuilding?

So like I was racing motocross at a very young age in Wales. However, I wasn't so keen on buying motocross magazines. It was all bodybuilding magazines because, you know, some of my friends are really into comic books, and that was their thing, and you know, like Marvel Heroes, the bodybuilding magazine, seeing bodies in those publications. Even though I had no aspirations to look like any of those people, they were like my superheroes, and you know, it was a visual perspective, but I'd read those magazines from front to back, having no idea that I'd eventually build a career out of bodybuilding or even start competing in bodybuilding.

That wasn't my goal, but I just loved the visual shock value from the people that I'd see in these magazines because, of course, anyone can sketch out a car, but not many people can sketch themselves into something that resembles a, you know, a comic book hero. So that was how I initially got into it from the very, very early stages.

And it wasn't until after, at the end of my motocross career that I had just back injuries that I just could not get over, and that's what got me into weight training. Then, and I was alleviated of the pain. I was alleviated of the depression that was associated with the pain, and that's how I really got into bodybuilding. And, you know, through healthier eating choices, I found that my brain was functioning a lot better now than eating a lot of the crap that I was consuming, you know, just to get calories in when I was racing motocross.

I just felt better overall, and I'd been kind of addicted to it since. Not from a competitive aspect. A competitive aspect was to just give me a goal to work towards because I needed something within sport to make me feel like I have a purpose. But I just liked the lifestyle that was surrounding it, you know, of having more discipline, eating at a certain time, going to bed at a certain time, and working out and getting that adrenaline fixed had been, I, you know, that was my identity for so many years, getting it adrenaline. So now, I was just getting it elsewhere, as opposed to on a motocross track. I was getting it within the gym.

And was that you started bodybuilding immediately after your motocross?

No, it took me a while to find the gym because I was going through a lot of issues. I didn't have my adrenaline rush that I'd become addicted to. I had no idea I was addicted to adrenaline. Because I didn't have it, I didn't know what to do. I had no purpose anymore. I didn't know where my future lay, so I started drinking, taking drugs, and I was in a social atmosphere I hadn't encountered before because my teenage years weren't like other teenagers.

I was racing every weekend. I was somewhere. I didn't have the normal teenage years others did in my vicinity. In my early 20s, I started partying, kind of reliving my teenage years then. It was late, but I knew it wasn't making me happy. Every Monday, I'd feel regret, but then come Friday, and I'd be doing it again. I knew there was something else out there for me. After seeing many specialists for my back, I started physiotherapy.

Resistance training alleviated my issues, and that's when I got hooked. It's about three years after motocross that I got into weight training. I gave myself a goal to compete in my first bodybuilding show. I competed just over a year after, got second. It wasn't a drug-tested show even though I was completely natural. I had no idea there were natural shows and enhanced shows. I was the smallest on stage but very lean.

I went zero carbs for nine weeks. From there, I figured this is the path I want to take. I went to college, studied international health and sports therapy for three years, and got a job on cruise liners as a personal trainer, then as a massage therapist. I moved to Australia as a personal trainer, opened my first gym a couple of years after that, started contributing to magazines, taught myself how to write and shoot athletes and bodybuilding shows.

I bought Miriam Webster's book on journalistic writing. I enjoyed reaching out to more people through publications. There was really nothing by way of the internet back then, maybe forums and boards. I decided I wanted to make a career out of contributing to publications. I left Australia, moved to Venice, California, where the mecca of bodybuilding was situated. Within six months, I got a job with Weider Publications, covering all the events there. Through that, I came across bodybuilding.com and started contributing to them around 2005.

Kris and the start of bodybuilding.com, writing articles, and video tutorials.

Why did you start writing articles at bodybuilding? Why was bodybuilding pursuing this marketing route instead of something else? What do you mean by "through content"?

Through articles. Because it was educational. The job at bodybuilding.com wasn't to sell anything; far from it. We wanted to empower the consumer, the follower, the client, the customer, to make their own unbiased decisions. If we received content pieces from supplement company owners or contributors that seemed too much like a sales pitch, we declined them. We never wanted to push sales onto the client.

Our focus was on providing education and inspiration; supplementation always came last. We aimed to deliver high-quality content, whether through articles, videos, or podcasts. We aimed to educate and interact with the consumer. That's why we had BodySpace and forums, to allow interaction between consumers and content creators. We prioritized content, engagement, interaction, and community to ensure accountability and transparency. Today, the content strategy may seem obvious, but back then, it wasn't. That's what makes it interesting.

Indeed, during that time, you launched the first video trainer, which was a massive success. But back then, videos weren't as common as they are today. What inspired you to create the videos?

It wasn't my idea; it was Ryan's. I wasn't comfortable being in front of the camera; I preferred being behind it. However, since I was the only one in the office competing in bodybuilding, Ryan wanted to document my process to educate consumers. He envisioned an online space where people could ask questions and learn from the best athletes. I was reluctant at first, but looking back, I'm grateful for it.

It humanized the process, showing the sacrifices athletes make. I got sick during one video trainer but showed how to overcome challenges like pneumonia and injuries. These videos were challenging to produce and expensive, but we didn't charge consumers. Bodybuilding.com's content was free, which made it attractive compared to other publications.

Did you need to promote the videos, or did people find them on their own through the website's traffic?

People found the videos themselves due to the high traffic on bodybuilding.com, both domestically and internationally. Many watched the content for free, even if they didn't purchase supplements due to shipping difficulties. The video series provided motivation, accountability, and community support, which static articles couldn't offer. It showcased the sacrifices needed for success, providing a step-by-step guide for aspiring athletes.

I followed the hardcore trainer, and then you also launched the DTP trainer as well. That one was so intense. I still remember those workouts. How did you come up with the idea of DTP in the first place?

I stumbled upon the concept of DTP quite accidentally. As you know, Dorian Yates is a close friend of mine, and I've always trained in his style, which emphasizes high-intensity or heavy-duty training. While this approach yielded significant gains in strength, such as squatting seven plates and bench pressing 170-pound dumbbells, it also caused considerable inflammation and exacerbation of past injuries from motocross and downhill mountain biking.

Faced with this dilemma, I had to make a decision: either quit training altogether or find a way to work around my injuries. So, I began experimenting with high-repetition sets, gradually decreasing the reps each week while still pushing to failure. Surprisingly, I didn't experience muscle loss; instead, I noticed improvements in muscle shape, density, and fullness. This discovery led me to adopt the DTP approach for myself and some of my clients, including IFBB Pro Mark Dugdale.

However, it's crucial to note that this level of volume and intensity can easily lead to overtraining. Therefore, I've developed a cycling method where I alternate DTP weeks with lower-rep weeks, allowing for adequate recovery and adaptation. While DTP undoubtedly delivers intense workouts, it requires careful attention to factors like sleep quality, stress management, and cortisol levels to prevent overtraining and injury.

How was the reception of DTP on bodybuilding.com? Did you correlate it with supplement sales or social media engagement?

The reception of DTP was primarily gauged through feedback from users. Initially, there was skepticism surrounding the lack of scientific studies supporting high-repetition training. However, as more research emerged validating its effectiveness, attitudes began to shift. Despite the initial skepticism, I remained confident in the efficacy of DTP based on my own experiences and observations. As for its impact on supplement sales or social media engagement, we didn't directly correlate the two.

Instead, we focused on providing valuable content and empowering individuals to make informed decisions about their training regimens and supplement choices. While certain supplements like beta-alanine might be more beneficial for high-volume training, the overarching principle remains consistent: proper nutrition and supplementation are essential for supporting recovery and maximizing performance, regardless of the training approach.

Revolutionizing Training and Transparency: Behind Kaged Muscle Supplements and choosing co-founders

Kris, the interesting thing is that during those years in bodybuilding, you went against controversial training and brought transparency about supplementation that wasn't existent then. I remember supplements were proprietary blends and secrets. Your approach changed the way people train and supplement. The journey with bodybuilding broke many barriers, making it successful. How did you start thinking about creating your own supplement line?

I began by testing other brands when starting the video trainers. The supplement industry was like the Wild Wild West. Testing brands revealed some didn't perform as expected. This led me to mix my own supplements from raw ingredients, but I knew this wasn't feasible for consumers. I decided to start my own brand without proprietary blends, using patented, third-party tested ingredients from better sources like fermented sources instead of bird feathers or animal fur. The people I started Kaged with were from bb.com, including the CFO and the formulator.

How did you test these supplements? Did you go to a lab?

Unless amino acids are fermented, they come from sources like bird feathers or animal fur. I sent products to people I knew in the industry for testing, including the founder of Reflex Nutrition in the UK. It was easy for companies with their own manufacturing to test.

What did you find in your testing?

I found nitrogen spiking and incorrect dosages in pre-workouts. However, some smaller brands tested perfectly, which I then preferred over larger brands.

Were companies aware of these issues?

Yes, companies were aware. They test their products themselves.

Wasn't bringing fermented products to market and being transparent about it risky?

Some people talked about it because it challenged the industry. We started with single-form ingredients like glutamine and BCAAs. We aimed to merge health and fitness, prioritizing consumer health over profit.

The transparency you introduced changed the supplement industry. How did you choose your co-founders for Kaged Muscle?

I chose co-founders I worked with at bodybuilding.com, including a skilled formulator and a finance expert. We focused on investing in product quality over marketing, with me as the marketing force.

How did you launch Kaged Muscle?

We started with single-form ingredients, then expanded to pre-workouts and intra-workouts, launching exclusively with bodybuilding.com for the first year.

How did you choose the formulas for your products?

It was quite easy because I'd been in the industry for so many years, and I've been training since, the mid-90s. So I had an idea of what I wanted in each one of these products. And obviously, being at Flex magazine for so many years and then being the editor-in-chief at bodybuilding.com and training, I knew exactly what ingredients that would help facilitate the consumer, not only from a performance perspective but from a health perspective.

And I just wanted to be the first brand that merged the sports and health perspective together because nothing else out there was doing that. Everything was performance-based. Nothing was health-based as serious as what we were to be.

Kris, how did this start? Did you have all the success you expected from the beginning, or did you have to adapt?

I had to adapt. I started with personal training, then a gym, contributing content, becoming editor-in-chief, competing in bodybuilding, doing a video series, and writing a book published by Simon & Schuster. I engaged in various activities, knowing I couldn't excel in just one. I launched a food company, Nutrition By Design, before Kaged, experimenting in different areas, some successful, some not. I focused on contributing through content, articles, videos, podcasts, and learned from mistakes without regretting my decisions.

Was Kaged immediately successful, or did you have to find different strategies?

It was a mix. I had to educate consumers with content to show how we differed from other supplements without disparaging others. This content-based approach helped build loyalty, leading to customers choosing Kaged repeatedly. Our success was partly due to familiarity with me and our distinct content.

What are the main challenges in the supplement industry, such as building loyalty and refreshing product lines?

The biggest challenges include combating consumer inertia and competition, not only from other brands but also from lifestyle factors like fast food. Our goal wasn't to take market share but to emphasize health and longevity over aesthetics. Refreshing product lines with "groundbreaking" ingredients isn't always necessary; tried and tested ingredients are more reliable. However, incorporating new, effective ingredients is important. We focused on making products affordable and competitive, prioritizing quality and consumer benefit over profit.

Yeah, Kris, another question I always wondered about this mindset. I've seen you are one of these people that seek difficulty instead of avoiding it and you went from big bodybuilding lifts to running marathons, doing events nobody else would. Like, why are you doing this, where does it come from?

I don't like being told I can't do something. I absolutely hated school. People say school are the best years of your life. I remember my relatives telling me that, and I'm thinking, if these are the best years, what's to come? It didn't make sense to me we are taught things I wouldn't use in my future. So I was always told, you can't do that. I didn't feel smart enough for school, felt singled out, it was frustrating.

Now, if you tell me I can't do something, I'm going to prove you wrong, not only to show you but to show you can do it too. So when people tell me, you can't do an Ironman, you're too big, I'm like, okay, sign me up. I'm getting value out of it for myself, then creating value for others by documenting it. I've had people come up to me saying they were into bodybuilding but gave up earlier ambitions, now they're doing both.

In the beginning, yeah, I seek out discomfort. I start my morning in an ice bath because the more comfortable we become, the sicker and more frail we become. Look at the blue zones where people live over a hundred in good health, often working manual jobs. We fail ourselves by trying to get too comfortable. It's very important you start your day with hard things. Do things people tell you can't do, your brain tells you not to.

Start your day with hard stuff, the rest is easier. It makes me more successful in business because I'm trained to do difficult things, so I work even when I don't want to. Starting your day lazy, with a bowl of cereal, leads to a sugar crash and cravings. It's about mental change; train the brain first, everything else follows.

Yeah. Kris, if you have a client or want to teach this mindset, how would you do it?

It's the same with my clients. It varies but usually starts with sleep, then morning routine. Nutrition and training come last because that's easier. Can you go to bed early seven days a week? We start there, then move up. It's all about mental change. We think wow at physiques, attributing it to genetics. But it starts from the neck up. Train the brain, everything else follows.

So you would introduce difficulties gradually?

Yes, then they adapt to more difficulties before jumping into a plan or good nutrition. They learn this approach.

And the last topic, about longevity, biohacks. You've been doing this for 25 years. How does one start with biohacks?

If clients sign up for a biohacking program, they do blood work, a biological age test, a DNA test. I look at their markers, then decide what to apply. A lot of it is free stuff first, like morning sunlight, grounding, blocking blue lights before bed. If you can't earth yourself or get sunlight due to location or season, we look at technological biohacks, like a red light panel or earthing trainers. When I'm home, I don't use many biohacks because I live in nature. When traveling, I use more because the environment is different, with more EMFs, fumes, etc.

Last question I want to ask you, what's the, what do you think is going to be the future of biohacks?

The future of biohacks, I think we're going to go back a little bit towards our ancestral way of living, you know. That's what I hope it to be because now our environment is very, very different. We have the EMF. We have the Wi-Fi. We have a different food system. And I really hope the food system changes a little bit. And that's my hope. Will it happen? I don't know because big pharma and big food have a lot of money.

Who knows? But that's why I'm hoping as the biohacking industry grows because I speak at a lot of these events in different countries, and I just see the numbers and numbers growing. I did a tour with Ben Greenfield in India a couple of years ago, and I was really, really surprised how many people showed up to these events with educated questions. And now, these events are growing, like, the Health Optimization Summit in London is just growing so much by over 100% year after year.

Now, it's been brought to the US as well. So I'm hoping, as more people invest in their longevity, they'll be able to spread the message and, , take us back, basically, to our ancestral wisdom, combined with today's technology.