Virgin Active CTO: David Turner

You were part of NHS. Did you join during COVID?

I did.

What's the first three months like?

A, it was 24-7 working. There was no Saturday and Sunday day off. It was constantly working around the clock.

There is a graduate right now graduating from the university and they want to have the career that you had. What is your advice to them?

I guess.

So, David, it's very good to see you.

Good to see you. Thanks a lot for coming.

Thank you. I'm incredibly excited to do this discussion together. Before coming into the episode, we started speaking about improving the UK's engineering and so on. If the government is watching or if someone from a position of power is watching, what is your advice for the UK for the improvement of engineering? You have spent so many years in this area. So, what would you advise people? Where should they invest? Where should they spend their time?

Sure, yeah. I mean, it's a great question because it's key to a lot of things that we're trying to do for the future. For me, engineering, the software engineering and mechanical engineering, me coming from the software engineering background, I think we've always tried in the UK to try and mirror what you see in San Francisco's Silicon Valley. But I think the real key is to try and find niche, but then try to get the talent from the universities, bring them in, invest in the talent early, stay relevant to industry, to the companies, organisations as well.

Where does this stem from? Why the imitation from Silicon Valley?

I think it's just seen as being, from a software engineering perspective, it's always been kind of cool, hip to look at what's going on over there. And they seem to be working particularly at pace, agile. And let's be honest, most of the large tech organisations kind of have their roots there. So, it's trying to kind of mimic that success in some respects. But I think that kind of has gone. And it's now more about looking at the kind of niche areas.

Obviously, with AI, there's lots of areas down in the AI space that you could look to kind of become more niche. But also feeding that into universities, because get the talent early, the curious minds, people working on things that are relevant. I think a lot of universities still are very academic and focus on kind of textbook. I think it's much more useful to get them engaged in things like hackathons with organisations, get them actually trying to solve real world problems early as part of the degree course, rather than waiting till they actually finish the course and then throw into the kind of real world of commerce.

So, that would be one thing. I think as well, investment, it does need a large amount of capital investment. And I think the government needs to kind of recognise that it doesn't come for free. And usually that will be the citizens and organisations that will have to kind of stump up the funds to do it.

I also like kind of twists around encouraging more women into technology. I think that's been a focus in this country, certainly for the last couple of years. And it's great to see that. And I think we're starting to see the fruits of that. And long may that continue as well. My daughter, she's a mechanical engineer, and she's recently started with the Mercedes-Benz Tronis AMG F1 team. It's great.

And again, that's a great example when I actually explore. I mean, I've been an F1 fan myself, but not really gone down to the depths. Now my daughter's in it. So, I get a little bit more interested now. And it's great to see the investment there in the Midlands. They're based in Brackley. Audi, I think, are going to open a campus in Bicester. And all that kind of area there, you've got McLaren. And there's a huge investment.

I think this has been happening for many years, right? Do we know where this stems from?

Well, I think motorsport in the UK, not at scale, not like large automotive, but like motorsport has always, the UK has always kind of led the way there in engineering. And I think it's continuing. And I think universities play a part there in kind of making sure we've got the right talent coming out who can actually take part and actually have relevant skills, hit the ground running. But it's always been, and we've got a great, we've got Silverstone F1, which I think has grown in strength.

I remember going to see Michael Schumacher race there. And I think that at one point there was talk about canning Silverstone as a kind of venue. And I think there's been huge investment there. And I think this year, I think over the weekend, there's like 400,000 people attended. So it's the biggest sporting event in the UK. And so some people, it's a car race around a track, but I get fascinated by the data and the techniques.

It's not just about the driver. I mean, the drivers are tens of milliseconds separate them, but it's about the strategies, the tyre changing, the engineering behind it.

You know, on that, I think there is a big parallel with exercising because there's so many of the cycling brands that are actually using a lot of the data measurements from Formula One and they shutting them down and they make them like, what's the tyre pressure? What's the speed of the vehicle and so on. And they miniaturize the technology, moving them to cyclists and then cyclists know a lot more information. So from a data perspective, how do you see, like, what do you see them measuring in F1? And what do they do with that information?

Well, I mean, I'm a fan rather than an expert in this area, but I know that a lot of the telemetry data is no matter where the race is, it flows back to the locations in the UK and you have the teams there all kind of focusing on little stations, adjusting, making adjustments to try and squeeze out those tens of milliseconds to kind of get.

So this is during the race?

It's real time data. So in my mind, it's kind of a bit like NASA on a launch mission. It's kind of that, you've got a big operational sensor with screens, everybody's at a kind of workstation working on that little area and just fine tuning, fine tuning, just to find that tenth of a second saving, which can mean the difference between in these days, it could be first and fifth place potentially. So it's very interesting, but as a technologist for me, real near real time data has been something I've been fascinated about for a long time as a CTO for William Hill and sports betting, the number of sports betting markets we had and the adjustments we had to make in real time for pricing meant that we had to kind of almost invent some of the technologies to get the kind of scale and rapid speed.

There is this crazy segway maybe, but would you ever think, like there is this, there is this mention in sports and health that at a certain point content, like health data is going to become content. And there is many brands that they would display, for example, the heart rate on the screen, or they would display the, like the velocity and the speed and everything on the screen. So these things become content. Speaking about betting, would you ever imagine the two merging?

Yes, having worked in the betting industry for a number of years, I think the answer to that is yes. I think it's quite surprising what people will actually bet on. And I think the data is kind of really critical here and to kind of create new markets and opportunities. Don't bet myself, but I respect the technology that goes behind the scenes here. But it has great applications in other industry because it is probably at the cutting edge of what I would call real-time data ingestion.

So from a practical sense, how do you see that happening? What would people bet on? Maybe if the heart rate goes higher or what?

Well, I mean, I think it's probably obvious that heart rates would go higher. I would say there'll be kind of mini markets in various different sports. I mean, a good example, which probably is played out right now, is like smart balls. So you can see the velocity, the speed, direction, distance. So those things could potentially create markets, betting opportunities. Who kicked the ball the furthest, that kind of market, I'm sure.

People like that kind of thing. I mean, usually it's obviously final scores and who won the race, but people kind of get bored. They want to kind of have something tangible, real in between. So I'm sure data would play a big part in creating those opportunities.

I see you today, you led a number of companies, but how did you get into technology in the first place?

Yes, yeah, good question.

What was your inspiration?

So going back a few years, I think I'd have to kind of credit my parents for this one, just buying me a computer, probably age of seven.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, so for me it was age seven, got a Commodore 64, which I think probably cost quite a bit of money at the time and it just fascinated me, but the ability to actually start to write code. So I bought a few books and wrote a few games and then just diversified from that.

What games do you remember?

Oh, well, really basic stuff, trying to emulate a little bit of the Atari games with a little Pong, that kind of thing. Then try and explore graphics and do like probably like a kind of a spaceship lander kind of programme. So I really enjoyed it because you got an appreciation. I liked the idea of being able to type something in and then see a result and just keep going iterating like that, improving.

So that kind of got me into it and it stuck with me and I'd always had to try to get the latest computer. I had a kind of network of friends similar to myself who liked that, like coding. And then university, I kind of took a different path. I did economics, partly to do, I think with the fact that computer science at the time was a bit out there and still a bit of an unknown. I really wish I had done computer science, but I did economics, I got through it.

And then I went on to do a master's in computer science having kind of realised that was the way forward. But I did my master's whilst I was working at HSBC. So how I actually pivoted into computing was I got a graduate scheme role and the organisation were really good in that they allowed me to go and work with the IT department. And I started there in 1997 and Java had just come on the scene. And I was really lucky that they invested in me going to some microsystems to do the Java certifications.

And so again, way back, way back, but Java was just taking off then. I think it was James Gosling who'd invented, it was called Oak, I think. And then it came Java. So I was really early adopter of that technology, object-oriented programming. And it kind of helped me a lot, excited my career early on. And I then went to work for HSBC and became a chief programmer and architect at HSBC. And they allowed me to do the master's because I felt like I needed to just write a wrong there and do the computer science degree. So yeah, that's how I got into it.

If you look backwards, like you had so many leadership positions in so many great organisations, if you would look backwards, would you imagine that this would happen?

No, definitely not. I think what I've realised and what I've taught myself as I've got older, I probably wasn't the most confident person at university and probably just followed the mainstream. But I think as I've got older, wiser, I'm perhaps probably able to take a few more risks. I've kind of just realised, just say, just try everything at least once, have a go. You never know. And just you learn, you adapt.

And I think for me, it's always been just take a few risks, have a go and see where it takes you. And I think that's the way I've been accelerating and up my kind of career ladder from being a junior Java programmer to chief technology officer. But it's all relevant. And also to stay curious, not to stay kind of looking at your areas, look at other departments, look at other people, what they're doing, why they're doing it, just try and grow that way as well as trying to improve the kind of breadth of knowledge of how departments are run, how IT is run, how it fulfills the needs of the business rather than just kind of locked down on a keyboard.

So that was something. I was never the best programmer. I thought I was, but I wasn't really. But what I had is kind of curiosity and a willingness to try and deliver value for the business rather than just churn out code.

So if you, I believe you were part of NHS and you led NHS technology. Did you join during the COVID period?

I did. So I went through the recruitment process prior to COVID. So at this point I'm going through, I didn't know, nobody knew that COVID would land.

We would like, it would be awesome to hear what's the first three months like.

Crazy. So I joined just as we went into our first lockdown in 2020.

So that's the first month you joined?

Absolutely, yeah. The first month, yeah. So the induction kind of got ripped up and put in the bin. It was like, right, let's hit the ground running. So it was fascinating, unforgettable. So I started by working with a very, very small team to deploy the digital service for the home testing kits, lateral flow test kits that we were all able to order.

So this was the delivery of the-

That's right. So the tracking and delivery.

That's correct. So we built a service through the NHS and Amazon did the fulfillment and the kind of warehousing alongside the Royal Mail. And I worked with a very, very small team, team of like five or six of us. And we went from nothing to a full digital service in three weeks, which was-

You're speaking about for millions of people, right?

Correct. So-

Oh, wow.

Yeah, so day one, it had to deliver, it had to scale. We used a lot of serverless technology to ensure that we could scale on demand. And yeah, it was-

Can we dig a bit into this? Like what did the technology look like?

Right, well, we used AWS and we used a lot of Lambda functions and stitching it all together. We used a lot of calls of API backend calls into Amazon. I think we brought it down at one point, Amazon, we were hitting them so many API calls, we had to rate limit that. That's how mad it was, people wanting to get the tests. But it was- What was most notable was, A, it was 24 seven working. There was no Saturday and Sunday day off.

It was constantly working around the clock. You know, we're up at like two o'clock in the morning, finishing 10 o'clock, having four hours sleep and then going at it again. And the team were amazing and really resilient and thought, you know, at this time there was no vaccine. This was like a way to help protect people. So the cause-

Did you have to hire these people or did you-

No, we had them already. So we worked with a lot of consultancy firms, but this team was kind of homegrown. So we got them in from the various departments within NHS and there was a few consultants in there as well, but they were a fantastic team. I mean, we just gelled day one. I mean, it was the purpose, the cause was phenomenal. Everybody kind of aligned on that immediately. And we just, as a team-

So it was a five people team covering the whole of the UK for all of the testing.

Yeah, it was a phenomenal team. Yeah, and I think, I remember we were working at such pace that on day one, when we actually opened the service, I think for the first 13 minutes, there was a glitch and it got in the press actually. And the problem was, is we'd been testing it and testing it and testing it, and we'd forgotten to open the firewall up on the service. So we were just sat in there going, what have we done wrong?

What have we done wrong? Oh yeah, actually, yeah, that's what we've done wrong. And so for 13 minutes, people were pressing, trying to get the test. Well, and then all of a sudden it worked and yeah, but it got into the news, that one.

I mean, it is somehow good distribution if it gets to the news as well. On the other side is like this engineering, right? Any deployment that you do is going to have something. It's not, it's never perfect.

Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. And I think the thing we learned as well is what we're hoping that every day after the service had been open, we were constantly looking at the data, the volumes of traffic, the latency to look at how we could improve. And it was a constant improvement piece after-

How many orders do we speak per day now?

On the lateral flow tests?

Yeah.

I mean, I believe, I mean, we ran out, so we actually ran out of tests. That was how fast. So on day one, I think it opened at 8.13 in the end. I think by 8.45, they'd run out of all the tests. That was it, they'd gone. So yeah, so the volume of-

And that was in the millions of tests or?

Not at that stage, no, no, no. Cause they were just being developed.

Oh yeah, so at the time it was, they were developed, manufactured and the tests were much less than you could buy.

Yeah, but then obviously the other one was the booking service for actually going to book a vaccine when it came out. And those requests were in the millions for sure. So the booking.

So which of these products did you work on?

So I worked, so after the home tests, I then went to work on the contact tracing app, which was again, a really intense time. Again, this-

There was a backlash on this one, wasn't there?

There was backlash. So in the spirit of what was trying to be done there, but there was no vaccination at this stage. So all we were trying to do was protect people, keep them kind of locked down when they needed to be locked down, but also allow them some freedom and ability to try-

Just a parenthesis there, David, like these demands for the apps and so on, do they come from the government and they say, here's what we want?

That's right, yeah. So it started out as there was an app in Singapore that had started to look at being able to use Bluetooth technology to try and capture if someone had been encountering somebody who had exposure to COVID and then notify them and lock them down. So there was a pattern. And then the Oxford University, the epidemiological team at Oxford had a kind of case study on this. So a lot of what we were building was based on studies from Oxford University's team. So the challenge, the challenge with it as a technologist was how the hell do you get Bluetooth technology to be able to measure-

It doesn't work, does it? Like it's 20 meters maybe there.

Exactly, it was never invented for that. So working with some very, very clever people from some very interesting backgrounds, indeed, some military, we started to look at algorithms to look at how we could accurately measure and bear in mind Bluetooth works differently on all devices. And with Android particularly, you've got a big plethora of different types of... So a lot of testing was involved because we wanted to try and get it right in terms of being able to accurately predict and measure if you'd had a...

So if I had a phone now and I'm talking to you, if I put it in the back pocket, suddenly the distance measured could jump back 10 feet. Well, I actually haven't moved. So we had to try and do a lot of testing like that to try and get the accuracy better, to give people confidence that, when we have said lockdown, that you're locked down, there's a lot of tuning involved. And yes, I think it did get a little bit of press around.

Sometimes it was a little bit sensitive to people locking down. But the one thing I would do take away from it was the report that the BBC News put out, which said that it probably saved thousands of lives in the end. And I think that's the key, but I take away is that we were doing it for the right reasons, that we wanted to try and protect people, keep them safe, but also give them freedoms back of mobility.

So it was done with that spirit and always with the intention of keeping it private as well and protecting people with privacy and security. So we worked closely with National Cyber Security Centre to make sure we open sourced the code. That was important as well. So people could see what the code was doing. And we work with people, communities, open source communities to make sure that they were happy and satisfied.

So for that, how many people were involved?

That was quite a big team.

Okay, so it's a bigger team.

It's a big team. Yeah, yes, it's a big team because there was a lot of testing and a lot of code development. I mean, it was from the roots of this. And we worked with Apple and Google because in the end we had to work with the new APIs, the exposure notification API, which they developed on their operating systems.

Oh yes, I remember.

Because we had a problem before that with being able to kind of work with the Apple devices. It was quite a chatty app, as you can imagine, pinging Bluetooth connections. So we used to lose the Apple devices and therefore we kind of worked with Apple and Google and they developed an API which helped to kind of measure the distances as well. But some of our team members helped to tune that to make it even better. So it was good to see a good working between the big tech companies and the internal teams.

Yeah, yeah. So those were the two products you worked on? Did you work in other products?

Yeah, so after that, then the good news was a vaccine was in sight. So then with the vaccination team on the tech and data element. And I think the challenge there was, and this is probably something that people don't appreciate with the National Health Services, we were trying to get data to kind of be integrated so that we could have a really good real-time view of the vaccination data, the status, who's been vaccinated, who hasn't.

So that's figuring out who is vaccinated?

Exactly, yeah. Or if they've had one vaccine, or if they have the booster vaccine, which one did they have? Have they had a flu jab before? To look at their eligibility and so forth. So a lot of that data exists, but it exists in kind of silos between different systems, GP systems, private systems. So it was trying to bring all that data together to get a complete view, a picture of the current status and make sure people got the right vaccine at the right time. So it was challenging. And yeah.

So I was in the UK at the time, and I remember using these. And then when I went back to my country, Cyprus for, I don't remember how long I've been there, but they did the same, but it was on cards. So it was physical.

Yeah, yeah.

Because you didn't have anyone to give it to.

Yeah, stamping a card. I mean, to be fair, everybody was given a card as well to stamp this card. But what was interesting is, I don't know if you remember the COVID travel pass that everybody was issued. I think it was actually first trialled at the Silverstone Grand Prix, which was the big first gathering of 150,000 people plus, and giving them again, the freedom to go to the event. So people had to prove with the COVID travel pass that they'd been vaccinated.

So it needed to be digital because obviously you can probably fake a card and stamp. So that's where the data came in to allow people to go to that event with the COVID travel pass to show that they've been vaccinated.

And at what point did you start learning about Virgin or thinking about joining Virgin?

So I think for me, I've known about Virgin all my life, which I've always followed Richard Branson's adventures. So I know the brand really well, Virgin Records. But I think for me, it was trying to continue the journey of health, preventative health in another setting. And with Virgin, Virgin Active, the mission really is to actually help people to stay healthy, to stay fit, mentally strong. So it was a good story.

It's certainly something that gets me out of bed in the morning. So I started to kind of look to move out of private, the public sector into back into private sector once kind of things have settled down with the pandemic and Virgin was just kind of clicked. And, you know-

But David, how does this work? You worked as a CTO before. Like, do people approach you? Do you approach people? Like you're more known at the time.

So a lot of the time, LinkedIn for me is, it's building your LinkedIn network. You always have recruiters asking questions around, are you interested in this and that? So, I tend to be someone who's open to opportunities. And as I said, I don't always say no, I want to be open. To see what might come from something. So with the Virgin, I was approached and read about the role and went through the process. So, yeah, that's how I came in. So, it was through a LinkedIn connection.

It's interesting. You mentioned you build a LinkedIn connection, what's the advice there?

Well, I think, the big point came from working for the NHS and working on the app. So, I think having a story, being interesting, having a story, writing it regularly, but also looking at the community and supporting other people as well, supporting the community, supporting the people around you. I think having a story, being interesting, being genuine, that resonates with people. I like LinkedIn because I think it's a social community of people. I'm not much on X or Twitter. I think it can get a bit toxic sometimes.

Yeah, I mean, there's all this talk about, for LinkedIn and the fable of X and whether it works, LinkedIn works. No matter how people write and whether it works, it works. I posted the other day, usually I post once every month or every two months. About the family we care for and so on. Over the years, these posts get hundreds of thousands of impressions. Over the years, we get 600 applications. I was like, this works.

Yeah.

This works. Whereas X, if you do the same thing, the community is different.

Definitely.

The community is different. The community is more of... There's one of the book of the most, but LinkedIn is more collaborative. The points you make are valid. The community is valid.

Yeah. I think people go on LinkedIn to try and raise their profile, but also to be interested and find out what's out there for them. I like seeing stories of people progressing, they've set up a new company, they get a promotion, they're doing something new. There's lots of great stories out there, and I like to support them as well. So, I feel it's a social community of people, interesting people.

Absolutely. What are the first steps when you join Virgin?

Obviously, I think, the first thing you do is you need to understand the business, you need to get out there and talk to people, understand the business.

And what do you mean by people, obviously?

So, not always technological people, obviously not. It's more out in the business. So, going out to the club, seeing, talking to members, talking to the club staff about the pain points, the issues. So, where could technology... I'm always looking at, where could technology make a difference? How could it alleviate pain points and issues? So, it's about talking and seeing, talking. A lot of it is talking.

And then planning, actually. Obviously, talking to the technology as well, talking to the team, it's important. Because, what I find with a lot of teams when you arrive, is they've already had great ideas, but they've not been able to execute that. So, how do I unlock that? How do I help them to execute on these great ideas? Sometimes it's about aligning them with the business, spending a lot more time making that alignment with the business, delivering to the business as value, because there's an investment, but what will the return actually look like?

What have you worked on since then?

Yeah, I think with Virgin Active the overall challenge was digitalisation. So, maybe the industry in general, but it was all about bricks and mortar. You go to the club, health club or gym, so physical location. And what we wanted to do was start to try and digitise the journey, and the journey starts before you even think, you walk through the door to the club. So how can we bring that to life? How can we connect?

How can we personalise that? So, the channel that's going to be used is the app. So, first of all, we had to bring a global app. But, what I found quite interesting with Virgin Active was that each country was different, had a different app. So, it was quite fragmented. It wasn't our own. So, we brought that together to create our own global app, which is really important, in which we can write all these great ideas.

So, the last year and a half has been spent building this app, this platform, to enable that to happen. Also, data around that. So, we had a lot of data, but it was siloed, it was fragmented, not useful to anyone.

So, when you say data, what kind of data?

So, data on, for example, members when they visit the club, the app they have to sign into the club. So, that's recorded on the system, so we know when people come, when they don't come, you can start to build the journey, so you can see when people drop off, then you have to react to that and bring them back in.

So, what's the journey on that? Is it when someone goes from two workouts a week to two workouts a week, or how does that work?

Yeah, exactly. So, you have a member who's highly engaged there, who's coming in a few times, and suddenly, something happens. They drop off to two, maybe to one, maybe to one workout a week, and you have to respond quickly to that, because, suddenly, what's happening there is something's happened. Maybe they've had a bad experience in the club, maybe the class that they love isn't running, maybe they don't like the music, maybe they can't get into the class because it's full.

Maybe the showers are cold, but something's happened to that member, and it's really important to find out what that is, and bring them back quickly, because...

When you say quickly, what does that mean? How does that happen?

Well, ideally, within a week. You can naturally drop off because they go on holiday, or they work away from home, but if it persists for more than two to three weeks, then you start to think, okay, is there something else? So there's a human element to this as well, where you would reach out to the club to say, to have a conversation, to give them a call, to engage them, and we have a referral network as well, so we encourage members to come to the club and make a visit and work out.

So there's something about engaging them through the referral network, which is important. But you have to do it as quickly as you can, if you leave it months and months, it's important to have that kind of data available to understand what exactly happened, and how can we make it better for that member.

So you're saying in a way that the technology of the gym is the intelligence in building the person, understanding the person, and then ensuring there's a reduction in churn and it happens. So it's important to do that as quickly as you can.

Absolutely, yeah. So I think what's obvious is when people join a gym, health club, fitness club, you have a number of different personas, but you have people who are highly engaged who know exactly what to do, and they get on with it, that environment is very intimidating. You can see people working out and they know what they're doing. You're not very confident about exercising. You feel quite intimidated sometimes.

Those people need encouragement. They need to be supported early on in that way. So again, the technology is about personalisation. It's about understanding, well, what are your goals and needs? Why are you here in the first place? Why did you buy that membership? What do you want to see happen? And then, trying to understand the behaviour when they come to the club, what are the classes we have available.

If they have connections, connecting those connections to make sure we can engage there. So, for example, on the day, if you have your wearable, your aura, your whoop, your Apple health, your Apple watch that tells us you've had a poor night's sleep, maybe don't go to that high-intensity class today, maybe go to the yoga class. Work on something different, because the data says, maybe that's not the best thing for you.

And people get motivated if they go and have a great experience. So, trying to understand people and trying, obviously, to help them understand, okay, what do I need to do today, what's the best thing for me. So, we're not trying to reinvent the wheel here, we're not trying to be aura or whoop, and what we're trying to do is use the data to then give them the best experience in our clubs, making sure we connect with the right classes, the right promotion, the right opportunities in the club.

And if they have personal trainers as well, making sure personal trainers have the information so they can tailor that session, that programme to their need on that day, rather than being the same programme week in, week out. So, we're trying to be personalised, intelligent and evolving with what we're doing with the technology.

So, David, if a lot of the work was completed today for all the gyms, how would the gyms look?

Yeah, it would be more seamless, that's for sure. I think you'd find a much more frictionless experience. So, check-ins have been streamlined. We've got barriers and people have to use. We've got a number of things. Some people have to swipe a card, some people use the NFID. So, we want to make it more, the smartphone they carry with them. So, when you tap in, that data goes into the system. Understand, I'm coming in and I'm visiting less this week.

Last week, I went only once this week, and my last visit was last week. It's interesting. And it's interesting. What do you say about the majority of people using them?

So, I think, at the moment, we have to get about 20% of our members to use it regularly. You might have an engaged person, but you have to get them to use it regularly. That's interesting. What do you say about the majority of people using them?

So, I think, at the moment, we have to get about 20% of our members to use it regularly. You might have an engaged person, but you have to get them to use it regularly. So, sometimes you have to create a different experience, which I think is interesting. So, what we're looking at is you can go with your phone, with the Virgin app. You can scan. So, there's no interaction with the screen. You can scan through the turnstile.

Now, it's connected with you. It knows who you are. You're looking at it there, you're getting the results. The results go back, and then it starts comparing your historical results and starts giving you some results. So, the good example is the machine. So, the machine is a good indicator of its improvement. I've done the strength and conditioning class for the last few weeks. Has it made a difference?

Well, actually, it has made a difference. But then it starts comparing your historical results and says, well, actually, you need to look at, maybe, to move on to the next level now. You've moved on to that. So, maybe, start looking at for progression or try some new challenges that mean achieving results as well. So, those kinds of things to help people feel like they're not doing the same thing time and time again.

The levels of visceral fat as well. That's also there. So, how can I reduce my visceral fat? But also encouragement. Because, as you progress, as you improve, you want to be encouraged, you want to be motivated with more things. So, it's okay like having a virtual coach. Just encouraging yourself, and suggesting things to you. So, a good example is booking classes. There's friction there in terms of I have to go to the scheduler.

I have to plan. I'm going to the club, but here, what's available? Am I in? Am I not in? I want to see what's happening with the scheduler is, I know when you're going to the club. So, I know what your goals and needs are, and I know from the scheduler what kind of classes would be on your interest. So, rather than you having the decision, these classes here, at 5.30, are most interesting to you this week. Click here to book, rather than you going through that decision yourself.

So, we interviewed back in the day about Vitality, and they mentioned what I find interesting is they mentioned the number of dollars they make on every engagement. So, Vitality is the insurance that gives you rewards, so you exercise more. And they mentioned that on every dollar they give in rewards, they get $2.5 back as much more engagement, which is very interesting. So, that engagement is a dollar that gives rewards on every dollar.

It's very interesting. I talk to a lot of gym owners, and you do rewards. Virgin has done rewards for a long time. It works in engagement. Does it work in that case?

I think, with the engagement they give back on health care. So, they help people to be healthy. It gives a reward, so there's a positive reward. I think, with the engagement, we're looking at trying to...

So, if technologists are in these gyms, is your idea that you will create a computer? With the computer?

I think it's part of that. I also think it depends on what kind of computer. We have a great service in our clubs. Generally, the computer might include getting a smoothie, a protein smoothie, something to help you finish your workout. I think that's one element. I also think the computer is a big part as well. The computer is recent, but the computer part has to connect with that too. So, I think with the computer, you can get quite personal as well.

Instead of being generic, you've come three times this year, train, go get a smoothie. It's actually, David, you've improved on a specific metric, and maybe I wanted to get 1% body fat down, and I wanted to do that over a month, and I had programs, and at the end of that, I achieved that, a reward at that point too. So, it's a bit more personalized and a bit more connected to you as an individual.

I think that's definitely important because it's about people more. And the reward isn't always a smoothie or a physical thing. It could be a bit of honor that's communicated around the club and your community. I like Strava and what they do there, and I think a few months, getting kudos, getting recognition from people is good for me to do it again. And I think a lot of people are aware of that too, but the community sees that what you've done has been recognized by that community.

I have the perspective that gyms will be about rewards. The people who think about their health are going to the gym. And I think there has to be a lot of improvement in that, actually. Firstly, yes, it's about rewards. If you have all the information from someone, like, for example, let's say a runner goes to the gym and they go most of the time to the gym. If there's no information, it doesn't mean they're not training more.

They might be a marathon runner when they're preparing for something triathlon just outside of the gym. You can see this if you see your useful data, for example, or if you see your cultural information and that. And telling them themselves is going to be more difficult. So, like, looking at, one, understanding the runner from how the person sleeps, how they eat, how they train, outside of the gym, like, into the gym, it's one thing. So, building a real understanding of that individual.

Sure. But then, and there's also the other aspect, which is, if these people are going to the gym, they're thinking about their help, about their health. So, I always think why all these services, like, access to blood tests, for example, or Thriva here, or why is Newman, or why is Strava, why are all these services not being created from the gyms themselves, which is always the question I have in my mind. You have the clients, and they're the ones who are the biggest potential adopters of these things.

Yes, it's true. So, I think, I mean, there's definitely something about the types of members we have who are significantly engaged and they're going to do the right thing, is, how do you get people who aren't engaged, maybe, if you look at health engagement, you know, like, for example, in the NHS, type 2 diabetes is perhaps one of the biggest costs to the National Health Service and can be prevented through lifestyle changes, one of which is being more active, feeling healthier, eating better. So, it's trying to promote those kinds of people into the system.

Every time I go to a gym, there is all of this equipment that measures your data, your data remains there. And like, I wanted to ask you, what's your opinion of this? Like, what's going to happen? Is this going to be that, like, there is going to be integration between everything, or is this going to be one device that actually measures all the information and provides you with all of the information and so the devices are going to stop counting, measuring?

Yeah, I mean... Like if we go five years into the future. Yeah, five years. I think it'll still be lots of devices, but then the integration will be key because it's, you've got such unique devices, devices that accurately, accurately, and the accuracy is the key bit for me, like VO2 max, things like that. You can't get that from, some devices will attempt to do a VO2 max measurement, but, you know, a maximal test is by far the most accurate, but not everyone wants to put a big mask on and run on a treadmill.

So, but I think there are devices that do suboptimal that are quite accurate. So I think what we'll see is, people have all got their favourites and maybe you, I mean, at the moment, I'm wearing two different wearables and recording information. One's good at certain things, one's good at another set of things. I don't think there'll ever be one single device that does it all, not, not in the next five years, for sure.

So I think the key bit is the integration, is getting that data, those data sources in and building that picture. And that's going to be the key bit.

Thoughts about the Gentic AI?

Oof, gosh. Yeah. I think a Gentic AI is something that everybody needs to pay attention to. I think it's phenomenal. I would say, I've been to a number of conferences this year on, which actually are cloud conferences, and all they talked about was a Gentic AI and the capability that they're enabling through cloud. I would say, in many respects, I've been to technology conferences before where things are overhyped and actually say this time, I think it's actually underhyped.

I think the next two to three years will be phenomenal. And I think organizations have got to look at processes where they can automate. Now a Gentic AI can do that. I know developers, software engineers will probably push back a bit. I mean, I know, for example, Goldman Sachs recently have employed a Gentic AI coder and that's got a little bit of probably backlash. But again, it's like, you've got to embrace it.

It's going to happen. So it's better to get on the bandwagon early, be an early adopter, try it, understand it. How can it complement what you've already got? I think everybody needs to take note of AI and play with AI. It's not just for technologists as well. I like the idea of like simple, low code, no code environments where you can build agents and play with agents. It's got a lot of opportunity, but I can see where there's a lot of nervousness because it will displace people from jobs.

Companies will look to save money. You know, an agent that can work 24 seven doesn't need a lunch break is quite appealing, but it's got to be done responsibly and accurately as well. I mean, there's a lot around the training of the models, where the data is coming from and making sure it's accurate.

There is all of the time this talk about AGI. Do you think it's happening soon?

Not soon, but I think not soon, but I have seen some very interesting stuff with robotics coupled with AI, large language models. And yeah, it's quite exciting times with that, but I don't think it's any time soon. I mean, I'm not close enough to certainly the prototyping and AGI and some of the companies that are probably doing a lot of secret squirrel stuff with it. But my view is not yet, but I think agentic AI soon. The next two, three years will be huge.

If there is a graduate right now graduating from the university and they want to have the career that you have, what is your advice to them?

So are they at university or just graduated?

They just graduated.

Just graduated. So, I mean, firstly, I gave my daughter the same advice is you've got to embrace failure firstly. So there's going to be lots of job opportunities hopefully and you're going to have to apply for a lot of jobs. You might not get the first one that comes along. So I think I was quite lucky when I was at university that it was almost a given having a degree that you walk into a job.

And that kind of happened for me. That was the case actually. Yeah, it was. It was the case. I mean, not everybody went to university and it was still probably not the norm when I was, I mean, I'm getting on a bit now. So, yeah. So for me, it was a given. You went to university and that was enough to differentiate you. And as a result, companies came knocking on the door and you got a job. The companies that actually come to university they'd actually come in the third year.

I'm sure that happens at certain universities but not all today. But there's a lot of people graduating from university and so therefore there's more applicants per job. So first thing you do is you've got to embrace failure but don't be afraid to apply for jobs. And even if it's not the job you think that you want, I still say go for it because you'll learn something anyway and you never know. You never know.

So that's my first bit of advice is apply for the jobs, embrace the failure, learn from each encounter. Even if it's not getting through the first stage with your CV, go back and remodel that CV. Tailor it for that job description. Make sure it's tailored. Pick out the points, the salient points they're looking for. Don't just hand over a generic CV. Tailor it for that particular job. So spend half an hour just pulling out and making it relevant because that's the first thing.

I mean, who knows, they might be using AI to filter the CVs, right? So do that. And then just prepare well for the interview. Make sure you know the company. Do a bit of wider reading. Spend some time. Invest in it. Don't just rock up. Try and understand the kind of questions they're going to be looking for. Know the company background. Look keen. Look curious. That for me is the first bit. And then when you've actually landed that job, it's like look around you.

Increase your network of friends, of people who are, and I call them friends because I spend most of my time with people at work, right? So you've got to get on with them. But appreciate their job function, what they're doing, the problems that they're encountering and start to embrace that and learn. So don't just do your job. Try and look at a wider, the wider organization, what everybody else is doing and why.

Because I think that really helps accelerate you is understanding how companies operate and work. I think that's my advice. And I think as well, just don't be afraid to have a go at things. Definitely don't hold back.

And for the last question, if you go 50 years into the future and you see backwards, what does the maybe health system look like? And what does the gym experience look like?

Wow. 50 years from now. I think the way things are going, I think it will be fully connected. So, and this is where privacy absolutely needs to be playing a part here because it's almost like you've got a digital twin. So I talked a bit about motorsport, Formula One. I mean, the cars, they test the vehicles digitally first before they physically build because it's more cost effective. And I think with healthcare, with DNA, genome, you're going to get a digital twin that will be constant and with the wearable data and that will evolve in 50 years time.

It'd be phenomenal how much data you'll be getting. We'll be constantly looking and it'll be all about preventative. It'll all be about nudging and making sure that you don't go down that path. I mean, it could be really phenomenal if it's done properly and for the right reasons as well, which should be to prevent some poor health outcomes. I mean, the advancements in cancer screening and the ability to catch that early, I hope in 50 years time, that will evolve phenomenally to the point that we'll be taking preventative steps before it even comes up in a test, for example.

But I think there's also the mental health bit. So even if you're staying healthy, there's the stress of day to day, the digital bit does create stress and burden on people. So how do we help people still stay in tune with nature, just doing a walk, going get some fresh air. Those are things that are so important to people. So it's trying to build that into the workplace as well. So making sure companies adapt to giving people time and space for their wellbeing. But yeah, it'll be a connected world for sure. And I think we'll probably all have digital twins.

Incredible. David, thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you.